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During a supernova explosion, a radiation-dominated shock (RDS) travelsthrough its progenitor. A collisionless shock (CS) is usually assumed toreplace it during shock breakout (SB). We demonstrate here that for somerealistic progenitors enshrouded in optically thick winds, such as possibly SN2008D, a CS forms deep inside the wind, soon after the RDS leaves the core, andtherefore significantly before SB. The RDS does not survive the transition fromthe core to the thick wind when the wind close to the core is not sufficientlydense to compensate for the $r^{-2}$ dilution of photons due to shockcurvature. This typically happens when the shock velocity is $\lesssim 0.1 {\rmc} \, (\frac{u_{\rm w}}{10\,{\rm km/s}}) (\frac{\dot{M}}{5 \cdot 10^{-4} \,{\rm M}_\odot {\rm /yr}})^{-1} (\frac{r_\ast}{10^{13}\,{\rm cm}})$, where$u_{\rm w}$, $\dot{M}$ and $r_\ast$ are respectively the wind velocity,mass-loss rate and radius of the progenitor star. The radiative CS results in ahard spectrum of the photon flash at breakout, which would produce an X-rayflash. Cosmic ray acceleration would start before SB, for such progenitors. Afraction of secondary TeV neutrinos can reach the observer up to more than tenhours before the first photons from breakout, providing information on theinvisible layers of the progenitor.

Collisionless Shocks and TeV Neutrinos before Supernova Shock Breakout from an Optically Thick Wind